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Want to make BW Vector monitors from Colour TVs

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dezbaz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dezbaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Want to make BW Vector monitors from Colour TVs
    Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 3:19pm
I have thought about this for a while

A CRT TV tube will work for Raster or Vector, just the chassis is different

For a chassis to work it needs a power supply, a HV Generator, Video amplifier and some kind of Sync control

Flybacks are not available for the old B&W vector monitors, so my thought is .. what if we remake a chassis that combines, for example, the HV section from an Amplifone monitor, with the other components of an LAI Black and white vector monitor

I have studied these 2 monitors over the last few years and managed to list all parts available.

I am working on this project soon, starting with a theoretical diagram for the chassis. (Re-drew the amplifone HV diagram today in preparation) The LAI board, I have already disassembled one and have a few to mess around on (Great design chassis by the way)

The final stage is some kind of colour converter which combines and creates white, or any colour the user desires really. Pots can be tweaked to make green asteroids or red etc. or a random colour generator

I guess the idea is to make asteroids monitors from a 19" or 20" colour TV

Would anyone care to comment or add their experiences or experiments

Thanks


Edited by dezbaz - 29 Oct 2011 at 3:19pm
Cheers . .

Dez
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote virtvic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 3:33pm
Yes please - get going!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DanP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 3:34pm
Hey Dez, it's my understanding that the phosphor mask is totally different between colour and b/w CRTs.    The colour ones in effect use 3 separate colours to produce all other colours.   It would probably work after a fashion, but I don't think you'd be able to achieve the intensitys you need on a b/w monitor.   Think of the asteroids bullets, and how über bright they are (and need to be).   Having run asteroids on a 6100 they just don't look right.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dezbaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2011 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by DanP DanP wrote:

Hey Dez, it's my understanding that the phosphor mask is totally different between colour and b/w CRTs.    The colour ones in effect use 3 separate colours to produce all other colours.   It would probably work after a fashion, but I don't think you'd be able to achieve the intensitys you need on a b/w monitor.   Think of the asteroids bullets, and how über bright they are (and need to be).   Having run asteroids on a 6100 they just don't look right.

Dan

Thanks Dan, that certainly is a vital piece of information

I might try it out early in the piece and see for myself. It's a matter of feeding the signal directly into a TV or star wars cab etc.

The bullets on my asteroids were what sold me on vectors in the first place years ago.

Having said that, I experimented with TVs a while ago (DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME GUYS) :), but I disconnected the yoke connector from a working TV, and fitted a Wg6100 yoke onto the TV, then fed the signal from the Asteroids straight in  to the yoke.

On a TV, there is no spot killer so a bright white dot appears until the signal is fed in. I didn't care as the TV was free on the sidewalk anyway. I turned the brightness way down before I turned the TV on.
If no alteration is made to the monitor, all the 3 colours mix perfectly to make white anyway.
I actually had asteroids on a TV then, but it was about 1/4 of the size as normal, as the voltages fed in needed amplifying.

I will do some more experimenting and compare the bullets intensity etc and then decide if it's just a dream or a possibility
Cheers . .

Dez
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dezbaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2011 at 9:40am
I picked up a few more TVs today and will try this

I am clearing out a few projects and am keen to do this one next
Cheers . .

Dez
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backflipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2011 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by DanP DanP wrote:

Hey Dez, it's my understanding that the phosphor mask is totally different between colour and b/w CRTs.   
Dan

Dans right.

Colour tubes have a shadow mask in front of the phosphor layer were as black and white tubes do not.

You can still drive all 3 colours at the same time to get the white.

Your biggest problem will be sourcing yokes and also finding tubes that have the correct deflection angle to suit the yoke. You will have trouble converging the colours to give you that perfect white if not.

I thought people are still selling replacement b&w vector tubes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote guddler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2011 at 12:06pm
I heard they ran out a while back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alpha1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2011 at 12:10pm
Nothing wrong with an old B&W TV surely? None of those will have burn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alpha1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2011 at 12:10pm
Nice to see you backflipper Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote guddler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2011 at 12:21pm
Don't they need to be 100 degree tubes? And if so, would a B/W TV be so. Not that I'm really sure B/W TVs are like to be easy to pick up these days either!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dezbaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2011 at 12:42pm
Tubes would be from a TV and the angle doesn't matter, because the yoke from that TV gets rewound to the specs of the orig B&W vector monitor

I have 3 or 4 B&W TVs. They were collected from local, no one wants to freight a tube from overseas, as the freight is over 300 bucks (192 pounds)
I did it once and never again.

So I am looking for an option, a late(ish) model 19" TV converted, until one (a better option) comes up. what are my options?
Freight tube from overseas
Freight cabinet from overseas
Invent something which will one day be deemed to be acceptable

Think about 10yrs from now, tubes are rarer, as CRTs are being phased out soon, flybacks are all sold, tubes are gone.

This may be another option to play these games

(19" tubes are 90 degree BTW)

Just a trial, if it doesn't work or looks crap I will give it up, but will always be looking for another option. I don't want to use an LCD put it that way


Edited by dezbaz - 23 Nov 2011 at 1:22pm
Cheers . .

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dezbaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2011 at 1:19pm
Here's the kicker, I want to introduce a signal into the new chassis, so you can make the game colour any colour you like. Or a random generator, or timer to change the colour at a certain point, or a new level etc :)

Some may consider this tacky, but hey, the components would be a matter of dollars, so if unwanted,  the setting can be left in the "white" position


Edited by dezbaz - 23 Nov 2011 at 1:20pm
Cheers . .

Dez
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote virtvic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2011 at 1:29pm
I like it! I used to have red perspex on my old asteroids mini to get that effect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2011 at 1:40pm
The cool thing about making your own XY display is that you can insert colour tweaking hardware

Going back to the original question, I don't think the colour/BW tube choice will be a particularly strong influencing factor in the end result. I think the actual choice of phosphor on the tube will be key. I suspect that the original BW XY tubes had a phosphor towards the 9000 K end of the colour temperature and were also high-persistence. I'd expect most TVs to have a lower persistence phosphor to stop blurring but I'm not sure what colour temperature you'll find. I recall some ancient BW TVs had a blueish tinge so that's probably a good sign, but I'm not sure how you could mimic high-persistence (without hardware) without removing the over-voltage protection and risking generating X-rays by hitting the phosphor (more importantly, the leaded glass behind them!) with particularly energetic electrons.

Am very interested in your work though and I don't mean any of this to be discouraging so please keep us updated.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dezbaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2011 at 1:59pm
I don't think I will ever be able to achieve the phosphorescent trails possible in Asteroids, so that will be a side effect of the colour tube.

Your reply is exactly what i was hoping for, so cheers. I stand to the side of centre when ever I do these tests for that reason (Xrays etc)

Yes, it is serious stuff, and not for the fainthearted or foolhardy




Edited by dezbaz - 23 Nov 2011 at 2:01pm
Cheers . .

Dez
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IDCHAPPY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2011 at 8:14pm
Above my head, but still interesting LOL, good luck Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bomjac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2011 at 9:00pm
To go to the original post, why would you want a flyback for a vector moniter ? The whole point of the vector is that it draws a vector from (x1,y1) to (x2,y2).  

Or am I just being dumb ?


Edited by bomjac - 25 Nov 2011 at 9:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2011 at 10:07pm
Originally posted by bomjac bomjac wrote:


To go to the original post, why would you want a flyback for a vector moniter ? The whole point of the vector is that it draws a vector from (x1,y1) to (x2,y2).  
Or am I just being dumb ?



I'd guess that the flyback in an XY display only contains the parts for generating the anode acceleration voltage and perhaps the heater power too, and that the name is used due to the vast prevalence of raster displays rather than being technically accurate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote guddler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2011 at 11:18pm
A 'flyback' is simply another slang name for an HV unit, or LOPT (line output transformer). Vectors still have either a LOPT (aka flyback) or a doubler or tripler. Triplers tend to be in B/Ws, LOPTs in colours. I may have made up 'doublers'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dezbaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2011 at 12:45am
Originally posted by bomjac bomjac wrote:

To go to the original post, why would you want a flyback for a vector moniter ? The whole point of the vector is that it draws a vector from (x1,y1) to (x2,y2).  

Or am I just being dumb ?


No being dumb at all, I wanted to reproduce the chassis from scratch, and the LAI monitor's LOPT has a unique feedback coil. Because the LOPT is not available, other ideas are needed.

This could be a BW and colour chassis, at the flick of a switch
Cheers . .

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