Outrun DLX Sitdown Motor
- Thread starter PhilT
- Start date
John Bennett
Senior Member
It does look like a typical motor brake.
I haven't seen schematics, but could it be:
1.Game wants seat to move.
2. Brake removed
3. Motor powered
4. Seat moves
5. Limit switch at motion end stop hit (or timeout period exceeded)
6. Motor depowered
7. Brake engaged
If so, then a malfunctioning brake could result in a stalled motor - that might kill it eventually (I'll ask a mate).
But also, it might work with a slightly different spec motor, just might not move as quick.
Anyway, it'd be interesting to know how the system works.
I haven't seen schematics, but could it be:
1.Game wants seat to move.
2. Brake removed
3. Motor powered
4. Seat moves
5. Limit switch at motion end stop hit (or timeout period exceeded)
6. Motor depowered
7. Brake engaged
If so, then a malfunctioning brake could result in a stalled motor - that might kill it eventually (I'll ask a mate).
But also, it might work with a slightly different spec motor, just might not move as quick.
Anyway, it'd be interesting to know how the system works.
I would imagine the motor came as an off the shelf unit purchasepd by sega at the time - there must be a replacement part out there. Good luck finding it though!
I don't think ColinD's idea of a servo motor wll work unfortunately, it's a Series motor which means high torque application. Reflashing could work, and possible causes of losing the field could have been clutch failure or overheating.
I don't think ColinD's idea of a servo motor wll work unfortunately, it's a Series motor which means high torque application. Reflashing could work, and possible causes of losing the field could have been clutch failure or overheating.
John Bennett
Senior Member
The manual shows limit switches, so I guess I was on the right track. Probably means that if you want to see how it handles the motor and clutch/brake (via probing) then you'll have to push the switches to trick it.
Did they say why it couldn't be remagnetized? How are the magnets held in place? I do have access to a magnetiser...
Did they say why it couldn't be remagnetized? How are the magnets held in place? I do have access to a magnetiser...
John Bennett
Senior Member
datasheet.zip
Yep, that's a spring-brake which is energised to release it. Bit confusing calling it a clutch as that would suggest the motor is powered all the time (which presumably it's not). The circuit for the motor (looking at Space Harrier) is a dual-input triac job, so it's presumably forwards, reverse or off.
It might even be that the brake is applied to take the inertia out of it, so stop it quickly and keep things responsive.
Do these things fail commonly and did it just suddenly go, or could it have possibly been degrading over time? Just trying to fathom out if it's a design 'feature' that abuses the motor over 25 years, or you've got something else wrong which has burnt it out (although I'd have thought the windings would've smoked).
John Bennett2017-08-20 08:13:12
Yep, that's a spring-brake which is energised to release it. Bit confusing calling it a clutch as that would suggest the motor is powered all the time (which presumably it's not). The circuit for the motor (looking at Space Harrier) is a dual-input triac job, so it's presumably forwards, reverse or off.
It might even be that the brake is applied to take the inertia out of it, so stop it quickly and keep things responsive.
Do these things fail commonly and did it just suddenly go, or could it have possibly been degrading over time? Just trying to fathom out if it's a design 'feature' that abuses the motor over 25 years, or you've got something else wrong which has burnt it out (although I'd have thought the windings would've smoked).
John Bennett2017-08-20 08:13:12
As a rule these motors never fail. Brake only kicks in to hold position IIRR but it’s a long time since I sat and figured out did what when. I think the crash sequence just throws forward and reverse and doesn’t engage the break. You will hear a lid click from the break each time it powers up and disengages.
Not sure why Colin’s idea wouldn’t work if someone programs a new servo controller to replace the existing one?
IIRR outrun is the only game to use that spec motor, IIRR space harrier uses a different RPM one of the same type. Then after that Sega used different motors although rad mobile ETC is a similar motor setup.
Not sure why Colin’s idea wouldn’t work if someone programs a new servo controller to replace the existing one?
IIRR outrun is the only game to use that spec motor, IIRR space harrier uses a different RPM one of the same type. Then after that Sega used different motors although rad mobile ETC is a similar motor setup.
John Bennett
Senior Member
As someone who's made and programmed a fair few motor controllers in my job, I'm actually more inclined to see what lengths you have to go to rebuild the motor
(just seems a more satisfying solution).
But yeah, if the brake isn't doing anything dynamically, then you could do it with an alternative motor (including more modern motors it you want to use an inverter).
edit: But you will need a bit more info than the nameplate. The torque at 3500rpm is piffling, but it'll do a lot more at stall and the replacement will have to match that, so you may need an inverter sized for quite a big current, just to match the off-the-line ability of the ancient DC motor.
This is all assuming that the rewind place are correct and it's not that the brake is stuck on, or that the brushes are shot. There's an old thread where it says these motors did fail and that they put in more modern brushes.
John Bennett2017-08-20 09:36:26
But yeah, if the brake isn't doing anything dynamically, then you could do it with an alternative motor (including more modern motors it you want to use an inverter).
edit: But you will need a bit more info than the nameplate. The torque at 3500rpm is piffling, but it'll do a lot more at stall and the replacement will have to match that, so you may need an inverter sized for quite a big current, just to match the off-the-line ability of the ancient DC motor.
This is all assuming that the rewind place are correct and it's not that the brake is stuck on, or that the brushes are shot. There's an old thread where it says these motors did fail and that they put in more modern brushes.
John Bennett2017-08-20 09:36:26
Just catching up with this thread, interesting read.
I did confirm the clutch-brake was not stuck, it was releasing correctly, it wasnt overheating, the motor board is driving the motor forwards and backwards when there is no load on it. Its just got no torque. I can grab hold of the pulley and stop it moving so when its all bolted in it just cant shift the chair even though its trying.
I had an interesting conversation with a guy who rebuilds magnetos, he said they have problems with weak alnico magnets. The problem is caused by taking the devices apart without using a 'keeper' to keep the magnets strong while the armature its not installed. It can weaken the magnets considerable in a very short period (minutes). Add to that the natural decay after 30-odd years and its convincing. Especially as I know I saw that chair move when I first picked up the machine.
Unfortunately - due to not having a clue - I did exactly that, took the motor apart, cleaned 30 years of crap out of it and reassembled. It was apart for a few hours without a keeper.
Sounds like an old-wives-tale but it seems to check out. The gist of it is that the magnetic flux has a very easy time travelling from pole to pole through the big metal motor armature. when its removed its primary route from pole to pole becomes the air, something that it finds very hard by comparison and this resistance causes it to weaken rapidly until a new balance is established.
The solution to rebuilding is to just clamp the motor case in a metal vice while its apart, it provides an alternative easy route for the magnetic flux to travel down and acts as a keeper.
It does depend on the material the magnets are made from, more modern 'hard' magnets are not affected nearly as badly as the manufacturing process and material make its harder for the magnetic charge to get randomised.
Note to Tin - dont take you motor apart unless you own a big metal vice!
I did confirm the clutch-brake was not stuck, it was releasing correctly, it wasnt overheating, the motor board is driving the motor forwards and backwards when there is no load on it. Its just got no torque. I can grab hold of the pulley and stop it moving so when its all bolted in it just cant shift the chair even though its trying.
I had an interesting conversation with a guy who rebuilds magnetos, he said they have problems with weak alnico magnets. The problem is caused by taking the devices apart without using a 'keeper' to keep the magnets strong while the armature its not installed. It can weaken the magnets considerable in a very short period (minutes). Add to that the natural decay after 30-odd years and its convincing. Especially as I know I saw that chair move when I first picked up the machine.
Unfortunately - due to not having a clue - I did exactly that, took the motor apart, cleaned 30 years of crap out of it and reassembled. It was apart for a few hours without a keeper.
Sounds like an old-wives-tale but it seems to check out. The gist of it is that the magnetic flux has a very easy time travelling from pole to pole through the big metal motor armature. when its removed its primary route from pole to pole becomes the air, something that it finds very hard by comparison and this resistance causes it to weaken rapidly until a new balance is established.
The solution to rebuilding is to just clamp the motor case in a metal vice while its apart, it provides an alternative easy route for the magnetic flux to travel down and acts as a keeper.
It does depend on the material the magnets are made from, more modern 'hard' magnets are not affected nearly as badly as the manufacturing process and material make its harder for the magnetic charge to get randomised.
Note to Tin - dont take you motor apart unless you own a big metal vice!
Its the act of taking the armature out of the motor that weakens the magnets, not AC running through it during operation. Might not even be relevant to this motor but I found it fascinating all the same!
I have measured the voltage and it was about 85v so within a normal range.
I have measured the voltage and it was about 85v so within a normal range.
John Bennett
Senior Member
It was news to me, but yeah, you're not supposed to take AlNiCo motors apart as it kills them. That's why horseshoe magnets came with a 'keeper' to put over the ends.
I'm not quite sure how a vice works as a keeper as there's already a metal can around the stator (as stated above) - I'd have thought you'd have to put in a dummy rotor as a keeper.
Edit: I'd have also assumed that the only way you can gauge the health of the magnets is to spin it up, then disable all electronics (disconnect, even) and look at the voltage vs speed as it runs down (not so simple without a tacho). If you just probe the voltage across it under operation, it'll always be around 80V as that's just the controller output you're reading (not the motor back-emf).
Out of curiosity, do you know how the magnets are attached to the body of the stator? Is it lugs or are they glued on? (just thinking about remagnetizing options).John Bennett2017-08-22 18:26:53
I'm not quite sure how a vice works as a keeper as there's already a metal can around the stator (as stated above) - I'd have thought you'd have to put in a dummy rotor as a keeper.
Edit: I'd have also assumed that the only way you can gauge the health of the magnets is to spin it up, then disable all electronics (disconnect, even) and look at the voltage vs speed as it runs down (not so simple without a tacho). If you just probe the voltage across it under operation, it'll always be around 80V as that's just the controller output you're reading (not the motor back-emf).
Out of curiosity, do you know how the magnets are attached to the body of the stator? Is it lugs or are they glued on? (just thinking about remagnetizing options).John Bennett2017-08-22 18:26:53
forcefulfil
EDOT King
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sega-Arcade-Video-Game-Outrun-Deluxe-Moving-Cockpit-Motor-/282628906891?hash=item41cdfedf8b:g:IjYAAOSwoeRZlIrPforcefulfil2017-09-07 22:24:38
Finally got a motor in my Outrun! Yeah! And I found the wiring fault so she's no longer trying to electrocute me! double yeah!
Thanks for everyones assistance and a special mention and huge thanks to MyKill who sent me a working motor all the way from New Zealand!
Installed and working, Just an annoying pcb graphics issue to fix (random sprites appearing on left side of screen) and were done.
Thanks for everyones assistance and a special mention and huge thanks to MyKill who sent me a working motor all the way from New Zealand!
Installed and working, Just an annoying pcb graphics issue to fix (random sprites appearing on left side of screen) and were done.
vib_ribbon
Active member
did mykill have a spare original motor or has an alternative been sourced?