The brutal reality of redemption games.

[John Bennett]

Yeah i hear what your saying about the changing arcade scene, but i still feel like if these arcades had Outrun, Street Fighter, Afterburner etc they would probably get used.

Our local arcade had a dual Sega Rally that my friend bought off them. It was in very good condition.
It made about £20 a week.

I'd love to be proved wrong, although sadly the price of the big name old games are absurd now (especially the deluxe versions), so I can't see many places trying such a thing :-(.

Ugh, I sound such a naysayer. I'd personally love to see more random arcade games in pubs. I'd throw a few quid into anything after some pints.

 

[Shipwreck Arcade]

I sincerely wonder if that's true. Gambling's been a big part of my life and it started as a child on fruit machines.

The difference then is it was possible to win. AWPs were typically set to an 80% payout. The business relied on winnings being recycled back in and they usually were. But at least you could get lucky, or if you grew up around them you could notice programmed patterns that signal the state of their ledger. This created addicts.

Ticket redemption however targets a pitiful 20% redemption value of money played. Young kids without concept of money don't care, but when they get older it becomes very clear that they're an impossible bet in straight gambling terms. The only appeal is to play to just have fun and any prizes are a crap compensation of money spent, which is arguably healthier (though I hate to say it).

They're a rip-off but with zero hope of a win they don't really form gambling addiction like fruit machines did. I'd hate to meet the poor bastard that proves me wrong.

Fruit Machines and Ticket Redemptions have that, 'One More have a go Win it Next Time' pull addiction factor' that drains the parents wallet. A ride or arcade game you kinda know where you stand (or sit😄)

 

[Shipwreck Arcade]

I sincerely wonder if that's true. Gambling's been a big part of my life and it started as a child on fruit machines.

The difference then is it was possible to win. AWPs were typically set to an 80% payout. The business relied on winnings being recycled back in and they usually were. But at least you could get lucky, or if you grew up around them you could notice programmed patterns that signal the state of their ledger. This created addicts.

Ticket redemption however targets a pitiful 20% redemption value of money played. Young kids without concept of money don't care, but when they get older it becomes very clear that they're an impossible bet in straight gambling terms. The only appeal is to play to just have fun and any prizes are a crap compensation of money spent, which is arguably healthier (though I hate to say it).

They're a rip-off but with zero hope of a win they don't really form gambling addiction like fruit machines did. I'd hate to meet the poor bastard that proves me wrong.

 

[pubjoe]

I'm with you and I'm no fan of redemption games, but the arcades back in the day created gambling addicts. I'm comparing to them. Kids playing fruit machines was a vicious problem. I don't say this lightly. Ticket redemption games are kittens in comparison.

I don't seriously think modern ticket redemption creates addicts simply because the 'gambling' element is no-win. No one's winning an iPhone with one more go. More of a small chance of winning 1% of an iPhone's ticket cost. It's a 'here's 10-30p of your £1 back' rather than a chance to win.

Young kids don't care but as soon as someone has enough of a concept of money required for a gambling addiction and looks at the prize costs they understand there's no chance of a profitable win to have one more go for.

Have you ever looked at the deal they offer?

I'm a boring dad who constantly points out the maths of the money spent against the value of the redemption prizes to my kids.

Even getting 300 tickets per £1 from the exceptionally loose machine I mentioned earlier (which is the equivalent of spinning a jackpot every £1) you're still not really winning. You're at best exchanging your cash for RRP value instead of a tiny fraction of it.

 

[pooman2084]

I sincerely wonder if that's true. Gambling's been a big part of my life and it started as a child on fruit machines.

The difference then is it was possible to win. AWPs were typically set to an 80% payout. The business relied on winnings being recycled back in and they usually were. But at least you could get lucky, or if you grew up around them you could notice programmed patterns that signal the state of their ledger. This created addicts.

Ticket redemption however targets a pitiful 20% redemption value of money played. Young kids without concept of money don't care, but when they get older it becomes very clear that they're an impossible bet in straight gambling terms. The only appeal is to play to just have fun and any prizes are a crap compensation of money spent, which is arguably healthier (though I hate to say it).

They're a rip-off but with zero hope of a win they don't really form gambling addiction like fruit machines did. I'd hate to meet the poor bastard that proves me wrong.

That’s a really interesting take.

 

[Bods]

Playing the games on holidays as kids never affected me with any gambling addiction, we played on all of the machines apart from video games I think as I don't have any memory of those in late 70s early 80s but never got drawn to the Fruit Machines probably because my Dad wouldn't have played them and were too young, never drawn in because I know your more than likely going to loose.
even though you were never going to come out the arcade with more money than you went in with you came out with some toys/sweets from the old cranes, pushers, chicken/Parrot Venders but we really enjoyed our selves, wheel em in was good when you did win a few coins and they rolled down the glass to you and all for not much money and then get a tray of chips for 15p

The same in the later 80s on the video games was great fun but never touched the fruits even though the small arcade had more of those than anything

Nothing wrong with being Sensible Dad Joe, sounds good to me

No one was really playing the older games in the early 2000s in seaside arcades which was a real shame so they all started disappearing then
How often does anyone go in all these retro arcades that keep popping up, would you be in them daily, weekly, monthly or yearly? if there was one local, personally if in City Centres it's last place I want to be with parking getting harder and more costly and most are a dump

 

[Shipwreck Arcade]

I'm with you and I'm no fan of redemption games, but the arcades back in the day created gambling addicts. I'm comparing to them. Kids playing fruit machines was a vicious problem. I don't say this lightly. Ticket redemption games are kittens in comparison.

I don't seriously think modern ticket redemption creates addicts simply because the 'gambling' element is no-win. No one's winning an iPhone with one more go. More of a small chance of winning 1% of an iPhone's ticket cost. It's a 'here's 10-30p of your £1 back' rather than a chance to win.

Young kids don't care but as soon as someone has enough of a concept of money required for a gambling addiction and looks at the prize costs they understand there's no chance of a profitable win to have one more go for.

Have you ever looked at the deal they offer?

I'm a boring dad who constantly points out the maths of the money spent against the value of the redemption prizes to my kids.

Even getting 300 tickets per £1 from the exceptionally loose machine I mentioned earlier (which is the equivalent of spinning a jackpot every £1) you're still not really winning. You're at best exchanging your cash for RRP value instead of a tiny fraction of it.

Yes fruit machines are definitely dangerous and can lead to some terrible addictions, agree. The problem is that Ticket Redemption machines are a form of gambling for children and unfortunately they and fruit machines take up all of the arcades now! Which cannot be good for a child. At least back in the 80s you had a choice has the majority of arcade was gaming, pinball, rides and other such wonders to experience and enjoy. Definitely the fruities were dangerous but at least back then they were the 2p ones which being a poor kid i used to occasionally find a few dropped 2ps from the 2p pushers and put them in the 2p fruit machines and occasionally win 20 or 40p which I'd then run over to a Double Dragon, Shinobi, Bubble Bobble etc and have a blast. But yes either way the arcades were totally awesome and more fun when arcade games, pinball, electromechanical games, crazy parrots giving out egg prizes, fortune telling and arm wrestling machines and rides ruled the roost.

 

[Shipwreck Arcade]

Our local arcade had a dual Sega Rally that my friend bought off them. It was in very good condition.
It made about £20 a week.

I'd love to be proved wrong, although sadly the price of the big name old games are absurd now (especially the deluxe versions), so I can't see many places trying such a thing :-(.

Ugh, I sound such a naysayer. I'd personally love to see more random arcade games in pubs. I'd throw a few quid into anything after some pints.

Yeah i know what you mean about wishing some classic arcade games in pubs instead of touch screen slots everywhere. Plus I'm pretty sure the children would play them in the day hours.
Sega Rally is cool but they needed an Outrun. Sega Rally looks to much like a play at home Sega Saturn game for the newer audience, where Outun was made by the gods. 😄

 

[TheDaddy]

Give me Bingo at Lyons Holiday park in Rhyl any day of the week !!! I mean we spent tons in there , Redemption seems to be everywhere though now and personally I find them crap and extremely boring !

Dave.

 

[Lurch666]

I did notice most of the arcades around here had the video games at the back so you had to walk past loads of slot machines to get to them.
Lure the kids in with video games and hope some get attracted to the gambling.

 

[69er]

Give me Bingo at Lyons Holiday park in Rhyl any day of the week !!! I mean we spent tons in there ,

Dave.

THANK YOU! Even if you only put 1p coins in the Cromptons Cake Walk pusher …or a Cromptons Tooty Fruity … I still have one of them .. . Every penny was appreciated… and of course 10ps in the videos and 2ps in other things … you may have even rode the Trigger horse ride outside the door? Mid 70s-1981 & 84-87 & 89 till it closed in the late 90s… I was rarely there when open but you may recall one of the kiosk workers , Harold was with us for many years , most notable as he had a serious stammer so kiosk work was ideal for him.

Unless it was the two years in the 80s Les Harker had the arcade 82-83? He never paid them any rent (claiming he was owed for rewiring the sockets high up and fitting new carpet . He got kicked out) so we got all his machines and the remaining bingo prizes free when we won it back the next year. But missed 1988 when they closed it to extend the swimming pool.

 

[Bods]

THANK YOU! Even if you only put 1p coins in the Cromptons Cake Walk pusher …or a Cromptons Tooty Fruity … I still have one of them .. . Every penny was appreciated… and of course 10ps in the videos and 2ps in other things … you may have even rode the Trigger horse ride outside the door? Mid 70s-1981 & 84-87 & 89 till it closed in the late 90s… I was rarely there when open but you may recall one of the kiosk workers , Harold was with us for many years , most notable as he had a serious stammer so kiosk work was ideal for him.

Unless it was the two years in the 80s Les Harker had the arcade 82-83? He never paid them any rent (claiming he was owed for rewiring the sockets high up and fitting new carpet . He got kicked out) so we got all his machines and the remaining bingo prizes free when we won it back the next year. But missed 1988 when they closed it to extend the swimming pool.

It's dave so definitely be 1p's

 

[kingtreelo]

i need to chirp in here

so as a 10 year old when you put 10p into a Donkey Kong game and your game lasts about 30 seconds, how was that different to these sorts of machines, they have just moved on. All us old bastards in here got good at some of these games so the 10p wasnt the quick win for the operators anymore, so they removed all of these machines that some of us can play for 20 minutes on a single 10p and replaced them with something else for the new generation.

imagine giving a 10 year old kid 50p and asking them to go and play pacman...no reward at all for them because they would never make it past the first 2 levels, same with every other game from that generation, how many people did you actually see in the 80's doing well in games in an arcade on one credit?

we are all great now we are older, but we have had the benefit of learning patterns in things like MAME

 

[69er]

Ever since the 1930s days of Al Capone and American speakeasy bars .. the tic tac toe machines in numerous forms were manufactured worldwide to ‘suck’ coins out of players pockets with the desire or temptation of a possible win (gamble)
Various laws and parliamentary acts have been passed to protect players to some extent but addiction is sadly hard to avoid.
It’s the dream like football pools coupons , spot the ball competitions , village fete raffles, funfair roll a penny - almost impossible to land a big penny into a square the same diameter? Lotteries both national and dog trust/donkey sanctuary/ cat protection/save the whale … there’s no end these days advertised on TV …
Arcades break the law if they advertise also if any free games on fruits are offered , even setting cranes at 50p but offering 3 plays for £1 is illegal cranes are licenced in public use just like higher stake fruits…

Yet Coral/ William Hill/ bet32red/ foxy bingo and all the ones you see for on-line play are advertised on Tv and bus stop banner hordings and newspapers.. they all offer multiple free spins to new players and as long as they have a gambleaware small print warning on screen for a few seconds it’s a loophole in tempting gambling addiction

‘Gam care’or ‘gamble aware’ are charities to help combat addiction , but are financed by operators 2% mandatory inclusion in licence fees (VAT on fruit machine total receipts) and all qualifying machines CatC , B/B1 etc must display a gamcare sticker and over18 advice too Does anyone notice??? Nah … they just play..

Back in the 70s /80s arcade players often holidaymakers had a fixed affordable amount they were prepared to play and if it was the case loose? All kids playing videos faced the same challenge and some did get proficient at games…. To be good meant watching others play and learn techniques and scoring secrets, often to get awarded an extra life, on videos. 8 bit games like invaders you could predict an ‘oof’ hit on the mother ship if you counted 8 shot intervals from 15th shot onward shot 23/31 etc big score if you hit it without being bombed by the pack of aliens? Etc etc.

Ability to master longevity of play seemed to develop with the advent of Atari. Or Nintendo free to play hand held consoles and home games computers .. even tho parents paid £30+ for game cartridges the kids charged school friends their dinner money to play if they didn’t own one?

It’s big business for the big national operators like Crown leisure & breweries in pub chains, cinemas, bingo halls, motorway break stops, and now widely turf account betting shops ALL gambling sites we are familiar with!

Many holiday camp / seaside arcades are licenced FEC family entertainment centres and have pricing limits and player policy.
AGC are adult gaming centres like casinos, down to town amusement gaming rooms (Shops) .. those are the addiction zones .

Anyone frequent a casino where businessmen arrive with rolls of £20 notes , sit at blackjack or roulette tables for hours through the night often …. Some take a playing card , leave the table wedge the card in a fruity start button (less common now on touch screen) load the slot with about £30-40 pound coins and sit back down….

I’ve been there as an engineer to repair fruits etc and seen this it’s sad to watch!
The machine plays to itself especially if the holds are not delayed and bank winnings can transfer back to expired credits…

Holiday park arcades are a short annual season March- October on many and aside from school holidays and bank holiday weekends it’s often Friday night Saturday and Sunday morning, till about 2or 3pm when weekend caravanners set off home , the kids get out from underfoot with their last few pennies while mum cleans the caravan and dad loads the car? …. Until next holiday we never see a player unless they are local or over school age and able use the seaside second home more…

Those kids get good at banging the pushers , putting coffee cups down pooltable pockets to play all day for one 20p… pop open the odd cash box door to rob the few coins a video game took that weekend….. and complain if you closed odd days because minimum wage staff couldn’t be paid …..

Where playing is fun it’s good … collectors today say a home game is expensive to buy? Often more than original price?
Imagine having to buy 50 or more to equip an arcade back in the 80s when used games depreciated in value year on year to near burn it for spares only … which was the case … we couldn’t sell space invaders for as low as £25 in mid 80s the years of jamma colour… which cost about £600 in late 70s and many were dearer?

Not many people got rich from emptying cash boxes unless they were doing it in the night after pubs shut with a big screwdriver!

 

[69er]

Not even going to mention scratch cards at £5 a go and long odds ….

Too late… do you know you can check on line if top prizes have already been won … usually only a couple of real biggies per batch game ….

Yet even if the big prizes have been won the cards remain on sale with the pretex of winning £500,000 or similar and believe it or not agents who sell the cards are often encouraged to sell likely losers if a player doesn’t pick a specific card game…. The major sellers are often informed of this!

I could go a lot further on this lottery law breaking ….. not least control of age to buy!

One old enough to buy lottery/ cigarettes/ alcohol and a gang of teens clubbing pocket money together outside on a bench await the representative buyer to return and all gather round…. A small win often leads to the same group approaching a flash car when it pulls up and tinted windows lower while a dodgy exchange is made ….. ???? Allegedly!

 

[Shipwreck Arcade]

Ever since the 1930s days of Al Capone and American speakeasy bars .. the tic toe machines in numerous forms were manufactured worldwide to ‘suck’ coins out of players pockets with the desire or temptation of a possible win (gamble)
Various laws and parliamentary acts have been passed to protect players to some extent but addiction is sadly hard to avoid.
It’s the dream like football pools coupons , spot the ball competitions , village fete raffles, funfair roll a penny - almost impossible to land a big penny into a square the same diameter? Lotteries both national and dog trust/donkey sanctuary/ cat protection/save the whale … there’s no end these days advertised on TV …
Arcades break the law if they advertise also if any free games on fruits are offered , even setting cranes at 50p but offering 3 plays for £1 is illegal cranes are licenced in public use just like higher stake fruits…

Yet Coral/ William Hill/ bet32red/ foxy bingo and all the ones you see for on-line play are advertised on Tv and bus stop banner hordings and newspapers.. they all offer multiple free spins to new players and as long as they have a gambleaware small print warning on screen for a few seconds it’s a loophole in tempting gambling addiction

‘Gam care’or ‘gamble aware’ are charities to help combat addiction , but are financed by operators 2% mandatory inclusion in licence fees (VAT on fruit machine total receipts) and all qualifying machines CatC , B/B1 etc must display a gamcare sticker and over18 advice too Does anyone notice??? Nah … they just play..

Back in the 70s /80s arcade players often holidaymakers had a fixed affordable amount they were prepared to play and if it was the case loose? All kids playing videos faced the same challenge and some did get proficient at games…. To be good meant watching others play and learn techniques and scoring secrets, often to get awarded an extra life, on videos. 8 bit games like invaders you could predict an ‘oof’ hit on the mother ship if you counted 8 shot intervals from 15th shot onward shot 23/31 etc big score if you hit it without being bombed by the pack of aliens? Etc etc.

Ability to master longevity of play seemed to develop with the advent of Atari. Or Nintendo free to play hand held consoles and home games computers .. even tho parents paid £30+ for game cartridges the kids charged school friends their dinner money to play if they didn’t own one?

It’s big business for the big national operators like Crown leisure & breweries in pub chains, cinemas, bingo halls, motorway break stops, and now widely turf account betting shops ALL gambling sites we are familiar with!

Many holiday camp / seaside arcades are licenced FEC family entertainment centres and have pricing limits and player policy.
AGC are adult gaming centres like casinos, down to town amusement gaming rooms (Shops) .. those are the addiction zones .

Anyone frequent a casino where businessmen arrive with rolls of £20 notes , sit at blackjack or roulette tables for hours through the night often …. Some take a playing card , leave the table wedge the card in a fruity start button (less common now on touch screen) load the slot with about £30-40 pound coins and sit back down….

I’ve been there as an engineer to repair fruits etc and seen this it’s sad to watch!
The machine plays to itself especially if the holds are not delayed and bank winnings can transfer back to expired credits…

Holiday park arcades are a short annual season March- October on many and aside from school holidays and bank holiday weekends it’s often Friday night Saturday and Sunday morning, till about 2or 3pm when weekend caravanners set off home , the kids get out from underfoot with their last few pennies while mum cleans the caravan and dad loads the car? …. Until next holiday we never see a player unless they are local or over school age and able use the seaside second home more…

Those kids get good at banging the pushers , putting coffee cups down pooltable pockets to play all day for one 20p… pop open the odd cash box door to rob the few coins a video game took that weekend….. and complain if you closed odd days because minimum wage staff couldn’t be paid …..

Where playing is fun it’s good … collectors today say a home game is expensive to buy? Often more than original price?
Imagine having to buy 50 or more to equip an arcade back in the 80s when used games depreciated in value year on year to near burn it for spares only … which was the case … we couldn’t sell space invaders for as low as £25 in mid 80s the years of jamma colour… which cost about £600 in late 70s and many were dearer?

Not many people got rich from emptying cash boxes unless they were doing it in the night after pubs shut with a big screwdriver!

Yeah, loads of good info and points. So many Betting shops and slot casinos everywhere and gambling devices in too many places of leisure ect. Bad enough we got them on phones and the such with adverts promoting them all the time . Was a better environment and times when things were more aimed at thrills and excitement rather than the gambling experience.

 

[ZeroSum]

Almost everything about Redemption Games in the UK is sleaze.

I don't condone them!

 

[Lurch666]

Given that redemption has terrible odds I for one am still glad they exist simply because they are keeping arcades alive.
I love soaking up the atmosphere of even a redemption arcade and if they go there will be no arcades (apart from the ones like arcade club) left.
I know they can be bad for getting kids into gambling but given the online gambling that exists I don't think redemption takes all the blame.

 

[pubjoe]

That's a good point. And the redemption market creates a space for some decent games that wouldn't exist without the arcades propped up by them. There are some great rhythm games, the holographic Crazy Tower is pretty cool, a new Point Blank came out a couple of years ago and a few years before that I loved Pang Pang Paradise (like Point Blank where you lob balls at the screen instead of firing a gun). Some of the big screen mobile games are quite fun too.

Also, now gamers are getting priced out of the cutting edge by AI data centres. You never know, we might return to a day where home gaming is years behind the high end graphics that arcades could deliver. Seeing as the latest arcade machines regularly cost £10k and far upwards anyway.

I'm still not on board with the gambling aspect. Most games have a jackpot of 250-500 tickets which is the best hope for your £1 or 2. Occasional games have a slither of hope for 1000.

Have you seen the tat that 500-1000 tickets can be cashed in for?

You need the win chance to form an addiction. Some people are addicted to scratch cards because, while a mathematically terrible bet, there's at least a chance of a win. Whereas redemption games are like a scratch card that can only ever return 5p-80p on your £1 spent. There's no carrot to chase.

I agree with the image in the first post, in general redemption games suck compared to our day. But our day's fruit machines ruined kid's lives. Redemption just isn't the same. The prize return at the end is more like a loyalty scheme where you get some crap back worth 20% of your spend. It'd be like getting addicted to Tesco Clubcard.

 

[Shipwreck Arcade]

Given that redemption has terrible odds I for one am still glad they exist simply because they are keeping arcades alive.
I love soaking up the atmosphere of even a redemption arcade and if they go there will be no arcades (apart from the ones like arcade club) left.
I know they can be bad for getting kids into gambling but given the online gambling that exists I don't think redemption takes all the blame.

Yes i hear what you are saying about keeping arcades alive, but my main point was why can't they be running even a few cabs for the adults! Even a Neo-Geo or a few standard jamma cabs running some dataeast, konami, capcom boards. Very sad when you see a seafront arcade that looks the same on the outside as you remember, but when you go inside there's nothing to play. Plus a lot of the arcades have tons of modern machines running and flashing but hardly anyone in there, and that's at the height of the season!! If someone like Nintendo (i know they probably wouldn't because of licensing, but I'm just making a point 😄) advertised and opened an arcade in a busy coastal spot where arcades weren't really getting used, and filled it with mainly classic cabs, pinball etc and mario themed cranes, pushers, rides, drinks & food bar. With a family friendly, less of a gambling theme. I bet the place would be rammo. I'm just making a point that i feel the arcade spirit would and should return.