Anyone getting f**ked off with Red Bull and Vettel

[Alpha1]

Tim.

The problem for me is that Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen are arguably better drivers than Vettel - but we'll never know because they'll never have the same packages. I feel so sorry for Alonso - i've never seen a guy so consistently finish 2nd in the championship with a pretty sub-standard car in all my years of watching F1.

I think Mclaren are in danger of turning into a Williams - unless they sort their aero out _and_ the Honda engine they are getting is stunning. I have a feeling Honda will not dissapoint but I am not so sure about Mclaren anymore..

The word on the grid is Ferrari have massive reliability issues with their new 1.6 blown unit - and it's also kicking out less power than both Renault and Mercedes.

 

[Luigi]

The problem for me is that Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen are arguably better drivers than Vettel

I still wonder how you come to this conclusion. No offense, but you are just assuming they would be faster than Vettel when they would have the same car. How can you know? What are the facts that make you believe he's worse than the others? TBH I don't have very much knowledge of F1 racing (nor any other racing sport

) but - let's put aside that Vettel is german - if any other driver would dominate the championship like Vettel does, I would say "Wow, this guy is really good". Of course I know it's also the team behind him and the car he is sitting in. But I simply cannot believe it's only the car that makes the difference. It would be very interesting to see the first 6 of the ranking driving in Vettel's car so we can compare...but this will never happen...unfortunateley

Luigi2013-09-23 11:50:37

 

[trm]

Definitely with you on Alonso - he drags the car way ahead of what it should do. And to keep doing that even when it looks futile must be a sign of great character.

Back to your original point though - I'm not sold on those three being better. Where is the evidence, or at least (cos of different chassis) the strong hints? I looked back over his lifetime race results this morning before posting and Vettel has been impressively strong throughout his amateur and pro careers.

There's no way I'd claim ALO, HAM, RAI aren't great drivers, but HAM came into a McLaren that was the best in the field, and then when it wasn't he didn't do so well. RAI has done best when he's had a very good car, and ALO as mentioned above is awesome in a good car, and even more impressive in a weak car.

I think I'd agree that ALO is the quickest, most adaptable driver out there because of his performances with the duff Ferraris. But the data that I can see for HAM & RAI are similar to VET - they all do very well in great cars, and not so amazing (but still better than others) in rougher cars.

McLaren do seem to be on a knife-edge at the moment and they don't seem to have a hugely strong technical team to save them. The push/pull-rod problem at the root of this years dire performance seems to be a minor drama blown up to a crisis by their (in)actions. I appreciate they saw little development left in last year's car so went for a redesign, but when the data started showing the problems why didn't they change paths? Messing up the airflow so close to the front of the car was never going to be something that could be fixed with a nose gurney and some radiator strakes. I think they'll have a good powertrain for 2014 and like you I can't wait to see a turbo Honda again

.

Regarding Williams - has there been any explanation of what's behind the dire results? The car is utter, utter crap which doesn't make much sense after the previous season and relative team stability.

As for Ferrari, well reliability is probably easiest of all the problems to fix - blow them up, analyse, reinforce and blow up again. But a lack of power is much more worrying to me - perhaps they spent too long moaning about the switch from V8 and not enough time accepting the inevitable. Being below the Renault is definitely not good if true cos they're not going to be able to compensate with aero efficiency like RB even with the new aero recruits. Which leads on to Lotus - they're losing good people hand over fist at the moment, and they're yet to see any serious $$$ from their sell-off so who knows where they're going to be next year.

I don't enjoy watching Vettel peel away at the start of each race; I was cheering when it looked like Rosberg was going to get P1 yesterday, but Vettel is only managing this because he's quicker in quali and race so the guy has to be doing something right!

 

[Alpha1]

I just go with what the Paddock says, they all say those three are the fastest based on the data they have.

I was a great Schumacher fan - even though Ferrari dominated with the bridgestone tyres that no one else was allowed. I used to like Vettel too - but have lost a lot of respect for him with his wiping out of Webber on the track and also the over take in Malaysia this year.

 

[Luigi]

I used to like Vettel too - but have lost a lot of respect for him with his wiping out of Webber on the track and also the over take in Malaysia this year.

Yeah, that's a point. I don't like team orders at all but he shouldn't have done that. On the other hand, if a driver is faster than the other one (and he obviously is) it is not fair to hold him back. I also think that Marc (Webber) wouldn't like to get 'donated points' from Vettel....but that is just my point of view

 

[trm]

I have to say, I really enjoyed the Malaysia scrap. Pure unbridled racing and you just knew that neither of them were too worried about binning the other car!

When Vettel wiped out Webber and did the loony hand signals I wasn't impressed, and when he took out Jensen at Spa I was even less so, but it seems to me the guy can drive.

BITD I was among those who questioned whether Vettel could overtake, or could he only be successful when he started from pole but he put that one to bed pretty convincingly.

I think that Vettel being so dominant, so young, without the sucky formative years driving dogs has contributed a lot of the ill-feeling. But people look back on Schumi now and as with most things time smooths off the rough edges of memories. It's quite rare that anybody talks about how he likely had illegal cars for a considerable period.

 

[grobda]

Its almost a shame for Vettel that everyone thinks its the car that's winning not him.

I too think Alonso Raikkonen and Hamilton are faster. Id also put Rosberg and Button (when he's happy with his car) as there or therabouts.

Yep Vettel is quick, consistent and hard-working, and can lead from the front, he's not so good when he has to either race people, overdrive a bad car or comes under pressure.

Evidence?... canada 2011; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h7XaIIZMns, spa 2010; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi-86Uptjco, top gear times; http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mj59/features/f1driverlaps Alonso's opinion; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEzqCcF2mps

He's matured since those mistakes so it will be great for him next year if Red Bull don't have the best car so he can prove himself. Also looking forward to Riccardo giving him more of a challenge to equal than Webber. Poor Webber, constantly being undermined and unsupported by your own team must mess with your head, I'm amazed he didn't walk out after that multi 21 fiasco especially after being forced to back off from Vettel so many times in the past... back when he was fast, back before RB broke him.

 

[simon325836]

Your all wrong...There is only one god....KIMI

 

[Alpha1]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24213571

Alonso has a point too. Since Red Bull and Mercedes managed to get the tyres put back to the 2012 specification Lotus and Ferrari have indeed suffered.

Sorry but Vettel doesn't deserve to win the WDC this year. He probably out of his three titles deserved the middle one.

Alpha12013-09-24 10:10:42