Dataman 48Pro+ IC Test - WARNING

[guddler]

I don't know if anyone else has this programmer or if it's just me - it was after all an arm and a leg!

Just a heads up that I've discovered that in the IC test for 4000 series logic, the test for 4016 logic isn't reliable. At least on mine anyway. I pulled 2 x 4016's from an MCR sound board at the weekend, tested them and it reported them to be fine. So I discounted them as being the problem.

I really should have listened to my head as hours later having been all over the relevant sound section, even down to resistor and capacitor level I decided that it really HAD to be those two at fault anyway, replaced them and all the sounds channels came back working.

SO, I've been in touch with Dataman this morning and this evening I will complete the required diagnostics report on my programmer (it could, at the end of the day be my programmer!) together with the log window of the IC test and will send that off. I will also be sending off the faulty devices and a datasheet so they can correct the issue. I have heard they are particularly good in this kind of situation.

If I can find a datasheet for Intersil 5610 proms then they're going to look and see if they are similar enough to an existing device to add support for that as well without needing example devices (I only have about 6 left!).

To be fair, that's what I call service so watch this space...

 

[Equites]

Thats the problem with those Programmers with IC Tester built in, I just do not feel confident that they are reporting the correct status of the IC. I have fallen into this trap before, and it had me looking elsewhere for the problem even though my instinct said the IC's that checked out good were in fact bad. I could have smashed the blooming thing when I later discovered it.

I tend to use a Logic Comparitor for my testing for bad TTL these days, not 100% reliable but does work 90% of the time. Everything has its limitations.

The thing is, nothing is 100%, piggybacking whilst it can yield results can also make fault finding even more difficult, especially when you short out a good TTL against a bad one whilst piggybacking.

 

[guddler]

The HP logic comparator is 100% reliable if you use reverse logic

If it says the chip is good then, in my experience, it is. End of. However, if it says it's bad then, again, in my experience, you can't use that information at all, it's utterly unreliable due to other ICs that may be impacting the outputs under test.

On the rare occasion that I reach for the logic comparator, I've just adopted that methodology and it seems to remain a so-so useful tool. I'm normally clutching at straws though by the time I remember it's on the shelf

What I like about Dataman, and this is one of the reasons that I chose them over the Xeltek (which, I notice is no longer available), or the Beeprog, is that a quick phone call and they will endeavour to correct their mistake. You'd never get that from one of those Chinese manufacturers (TOP etc.)

 

[P-Man]

You have to remember at the end of the day, all test equipment is a guide, none of my equipment can be relied on absolutely for every function.

All chips operate in the analogue world. Yes they might be digitally switching, but they are still analog devices. Failures and testing methods cannot always simulate fault situations and therefore canno test for every eventuality. Speed is often the issue when a bit of kit says a chip is good but it doesn't work in-circuit. You have to remember that a chip could be used by the pcb designer in a funky way, and there can be other things holding the input/output nodes.. types of loading that no piece of test equipmnt can simulate unless it was specifically setup for that exact application you have removed it from.

 

[Equites]

The HP logic comparator is 100% reliable if you use reverse logic

If it says the chip is good then, in my experience, it is. End of. However, if it says it's bad then, again, in my experience, you can't use that information at all, it's utterly unreliable due to other ICs that may be impacting the outputs under test.

Completely true, usually I follow the input path backwards of any TTL reported bad by a Comparitor until I find a bad IC at the start of the chain, usually I know it is the bad IC if an IC further backwards outputs are good. It just gets a bit confusing when there is more than bad IC which common.

Having said that, in the troubleshooting scheme of things, I am very much a noob, still learning and most times my instincts serve me better than my knowledge.

Have you ever tried the ABI IC Tester? I've heard good things about them;

http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Fasteners-Production-Equipment/Test-Equipment/General-Testers-Meters/Digital-IC-tester-ABI/31077/kw/ic+tester

Its just a shame you cannot test these things in circuit, for obvious reasons I know but still a shame there is no way round this (that I know of).
Equites2011-05-31 13:53:23

 

[guddler]

@Andy: At a guess, I imagine it's possibly more fundamental than that. CMOS logic is rated up to 18v and I bit they're only testing it at 5v. MCR sound boards put a voltage level of 12v through them. Wouldn't surprise me if that's the issue. Anyway, will see what they say!

@Equites - I thought the whole point of the ABI was that it could do in-circuit testing. I've not tried one, no, but I know Andy has and so has Tim, and I think maybe DanP - lots of people but me

 

[P-Man]

Get one of the ABI ICT (in-circuit tester) models.. like the Board Master 4000. you can test in circuit, but another set of rules applies to what you can and can't test.

 

[Equites]

@Equites - I thought the whole point of the ABI was that it could do in-circuit testing. I've not tried one, no, but I know Andy has and so has Tim, and I think maybe DanP - lots of people but me

And me lol. I may invest in one if Andy/Tim recommend their use, in-circuit would be nice, but I would imagine it will limit its use?

The 4016 IC's are getting quite hard to source now, I found a stack of them at Rapid Electronics going cheap so bought a couple of tubes. Asteroids likes to eat these up.

 

[P-Man]

4016's hard to get? please... they're at the bottom of the list, they are plentiful compared to nearly everything else you will need to find while repairing

ABI BM4000 - its another bit of test gear to clutter up your bench. I have my own methods for troubleshooting that negate the need for firing up such an unwieldy beast, but every now and then when you want a second opinion on a fault its good to dig it out. For me, i only use the BM4k when every other weapon in the arsenal isn't yielding results. They require a lot more knowledge of TTL operation and can require time to setup depending on the UUT. If you can get one, then do get one, but as with what martin has said, i have chips that the ABI bm4k will pass in its out-of-circuit ZIF socket that fail under load in-circuit.. when testing in-circuit with the ABI, if it says the chip is good, then it pretty much is. If it says its bad, you have to look at the report for why its bad and this can often elucidate other clues to finding your culprit. The BM4k can do an awful lot more, but its not for beginners and going into all its features is beyond the scope of this post. If you want to fix pcbs on a daily basis then i'd say its useful the the once-a-month i get to fire it up and use it.

 

[Equites]

The BM4k can do an awful lot more, but its not for beginners and going into all its features is beyond the scope of this post. If you want to fix pcbs on a daily basis then i'd say its useful the the once-a-month i get to fire it up and use it.

The ABI is not for me then, as I am a beginner and looking for tools that could make life easier. Having said that, I am not wanting to repair PCBs as a way of passing time, just my own when they die

Sooo much to learn, sooo little time.

 

[Macro]

I agree with p-man, if the ABI says the chip is good, then you can usually discount it from the list of suspects, if it says it is bad, then check it out with a logic probe before ripping it out.

however, if you don't mind a few wasted chips it can be good for PCB's where you have no schematics - test the lot, replace anything that fails

it's also good for finding a fault on the lower board of a stack of boards (such as CPS1, Irem etc), where the board is a pain to get at when PCB's are assembled, since it can test chips on that board alone. (fixed a legened of hero tomna like that)

ultimately, I still use the fluke and the logic probe most of the time!

 

[guddler]

Hmm, you got me thinking now. My Monaco GP doesn't work any more. Now admittedly I haven't looked at it at all yet as its only been 4 years so far

but if the fault is on the bottom board of the stack you can't physically work on it as the back plane isn't symmetrical!

May need to borrow an ABI if that turns out to be the case...

 

[Macro]

or just give me the game and I'll fix it for me ...

 

[guddler]

I'm half tempted to say, you want it, come and get it! But I have to be careful I dont end up with nothing left!

 

[trm]

I'd like to see a repair log for a TTL-only game!

 

[guddler]

I'm sure P-Man has plenty! But B/W Pong types aside, I'd love to see some repair logs for Monaco GP too. Trouble is, I'd need to fix it first! I guess people must have repaired them over the years? Or maybe they just flogged them to death until eventually taking them off site. Being all TTL they'll soldier on with faults, still running, sometimes with things so minor you don't even realise.

It's only when it does something like decide it's not going to recognise coin inputs that you get to the point you have to do something about it. And yep, that IS all that's wrong with mine. I really should get the boards on the bench. I already have a test loom of sorts - no score displays or steering but the rest is there.

Anyway, just filed the report for Dataman now so will be interesting to see what they have to say...

 

[guddler]

Ok, so official response from Dataman is...

"If the test says the chip is bad - then it IS. If it says it passes, then it passes OUR tests but could still be bad"

The explanation was a bit longer than that, but that's the jist of it.

So, pretty much as already suspected and indicated. And actually, in the case of a 4016 that's as far as it goes since the HP comparator doesn't go beyond 7v if memory serves me right (it may not!). But in the case of 74 series TTL, you've got the comparator for which good really means good and the programmer for which bad really does mean bad. Put the two together and there's a solution!

Obviously things don't usually get this drastic before the fault is found anyway