I've suspected this for a while. I discovered that a recently PAT certified cab I've just got has a metal power switch on top of the cab, that is bolted to a bare metal plate. The switch naturally has the mains live wire going through it, but the switch/plate isn't even earthed.
Is PAT testing meaningless?
- Thread starter big10p
- Start date
thegreathopper
Active member
It depends who is doing the test, it’s usually done to a strict price and in a rush.
So things get missed.
But yes Portable appliance testing is a bit pointless.
So things get missed.
But yes Portable appliance testing is a bit pointless.
As I suspected. So, yeah... meaningless. Lol
Answer to your question is NO ITS NOT !! I have seen some potentially life threatening situations whilst doing tests and prety sure I have saved lives !!. There is only certain tests you can do regarding earths , Breaks in cable ect ect (Not going into it all) this DOES NOT highlight all issues as we dont even need to power most things on to test. Nothing is every stripped down and tested (Unless it fails and you are repairing , Again only electricians would do that)
As always it does depends on who is doing the test and how good / competent they are. Unfortunately as the @thegreathopper says everything is price driven now as people will do it as cheap as poss to get the job. When i priced a job I was higher per item than the cheaper ones and my answer to ' Why are you more expensive ' is simply ' Because i do it right and take my time ! '.
I would need to see the switch and see the test results to determine if it would have been picked up or not.
Dave.
As always it does depends on who is doing the test and how good / competent they are. Unfortunately as the @thegreathopper says everything is price driven now as people will do it as cheap as poss to get the job. When i priced a job I was higher per item than the cheaper ones and my answer to ' Why are you more expensive ' is simply ' Because i do it right and take my time ! '.
I would need to see the switch and see the test results to determine if it would have been picked up or not.
Dave.
When I say meaningless, I really mean that it's not a guarantee that the appliance is electrically safe.
I found this image online of the switch, which shows it earthed.
The Pat testing was really about making people more aware of the dangers and of course making money. It proves that someone has at least looked at the appliance on a specific day once a year satisfying insurance companies. The reason why the price has dropped from £4.99 a unit down to cheap as chips is because damage to the cables and appliances have occurred within hours of a test being done and any Tom,Dick or Harry is allowed to do it. So safety wise it basically covers one day a year assuming you have a competent person testing the appliance according to its potential danger areas in the 1st place. But this is enough for a company to say in court that they have complied with the current regulations. Remember that the day after the test a machine could be moved and then sat on its mains cable severing the earth and no-one would know any different, kiddie ride for example.
I have seen operators just buy the labels and sign and date them and stick them on the machine,which is naughty. Realistically you should have all the test data stored but again it is just valid for that one day anyway and it's easy to say it must have gone faulty after the test was completed and impossible to prove otherwise.
So yes a good idea but in reality seeing that sticker does not make me feel any safer knowing what I know and having seen what I've seen.
I have seen operators just buy the labels and sign and date them and stick them on the machine,which is naughty. Realistically you should have all the test data stored but again it is just valid for that one day anyway and it's easy to say it must have gone faulty after the test was completed and impossible to prove otherwise.
So yes a good idea but in reality seeing that sticker does not make me feel any safer knowing what I know and having seen what I've seen.
Haha yeh that just some idiot who has left live cables inside , They can not be touching else it would not pass the relevant tests. The PAT test is basically tests earth, see if the polarity is correct and the mains (External Cable) is safe. They very very rarely open a unit up and only do so in rare cases , And again would only be electricians that would do it.
It means its safe to plug in , Not that it will work when plugged in if that makes sense.
Biggest problem is things can go wrong after the pat test. Happened a lot.
Dave.
Exactly as stated above like a car MOT next day you could change a tyre to a perished spare you had in the garage? The car still has 1 year legality
Pat is not a guarantee of safety or even required for home use equipment
It is to protect public accessible mains operated items and also the staff and customers within a company or business.
Who use or have access to the item.
Testing periodically is mandatory for public safety… but again ‘ portable’ can be interpreted in different ways
Shop tills , canteen kettles ,snack vender machines, pub toilet hand driers , arcade stuff in arcade or alone in a cafe etc ….
The test is applied where the equipment is sited, on the date of testing and if that item can be deemed as not portable it may be exempt but an earth continuity test should still be carried out .. if ! ! ! It requires an earthed supply if not normally used with a two core supply cable , say table lamps in a restaurant?
Among my arcade work repairs seperate to our sales , pooltable reclothing and pub leisure equipment supply .. each was covered by appropriate insurance.. as said too any competent person with adequate understanding of the type of “ portable “ appliance and it’s likely risk issues can do the test using a good PAT testing unit.
Knowing the requirements it’s entirely NDT non destructive testing and inaccessible areas could be missed or not deemed a ‘risk’ area . Much of the full test involves observation as well as earth bonding and insulation checking .. THEN the term portable leaves a test open to thought..
THE TEST : visual check . As stated a common sense opinion .. Supply cable must be (ideally exceptions can apply) under 2 metres and visibly enter an undamaged switchable socket. The plug and cable should be assessed for damage , poor fitting of terminal wiring or incorrect fuse rating where appropriate. Fail . Exposed conductors fail as should badly crushed/pinched wire and cable clamps should grip the outer sleeving not just be loose on inner wires . Factory sealed euro leads are recommended but often video cabs have an internally fitted mains lead, more common in older games especially. Seperate euro cables should be tested individually as they can be swapped around ?
It is often assumed that all metal door frames , panels , locks and refill keys etc are linked by manufacture to the incoming earth… which can also be age dependant as some older equipment may not have the wiring? Though it is expected that operators take adequate steps to ensure player safety with extra earthing on such as palm reader fortune tellers and similar vintage items previously fed by two core supply… Plastic Glendale elephants etc, fail as the coin insert plate is not usually earthed while the flo tube lighting always is? The coin entry plate often held in by a lock and tongue latch can be totally removed for servicing blockages by lolly stick, bent coin etc. so often gets detached from any earth?
Electrically an earth point is located .. often a key in a lock or exposed door hinge etc. The pat unit is supplied with mains and the appliance under test is plugged into the test device.. ( which does not power up the appliance on test) Then any competent user follows the instructions pressing each button as asked and notes the response of the analogue needle .. only readings within the green zone for either continuity or insulation tests are a legal pass ….
As you assume it can be relatively unimportant or meaningless if the device has been moved or altered in any way as with a car MOT … It can and does protect users from risk of harm ?
In some arcades I have tested every machine other things often apply a FAIL if the equipment may be fine ? One is too few supply outlets too far from machines on islands …. 13amp extension cable supplying say 6-8 or more 5 amp fruits or videos via adapters in the adapters … but like all of us at Xmas when the tree lights and extra window lights need to share a plug with the tv, music , computer, vacuum cleaner etc…. 😂
Worse though is many arcades have a 500vac supply split into banks of blue , yellow , red …. Any two of which supply around 240v there is no actual neutral or earth as such … the supply live to 10 wall sited games on yellow will be the live plug pin , then the next bank of say 14 machines could be on blue live or red live and all 3 phases share a return which is a technical earth at the main RCD …. I have noted many cases of two adjacent machines supplied on two different phases actually expose players to a tingle leak off earthed metal parts voltage of around 80volts not lethal but not pleasant if you ran in off the beach in bare feet or a child licks one while having a damp hand on the next one .. And the public are totally unaware as are often arcade staff? Or owners till it’s pointed out or someone says I got a shock like pins and needles??? All machines are wired to standard live / neutral earth but the site sockets have differing live supplies shared by the 500v 3 phase and the sensible thing is to mark which phase supplies which sockets … plugging a solder iron into a blue live socket and working on a plugged in but ‘ off ‘ adjacent game could be dangerous to the engineer,,
As said blank labels are on eBay , just date them and pray no mishaps,,,, or like my stickers printed with my details and tel no. Seen in picture of test unit
The other picture shows my £1,000,000 of public liability cover up to just after I ceased doing repairs commercially after my heart attack and retirement .. while no professional training might be acceptable doing such testing , my most recent refresher training certificate of 2017 is also available and I am a qualified amusement electrician tv radio repair engineer.
A million quid is how serious I took my repairs and any test safety for users. Not meaningless! But in self protection too!
But do agree wholeheartedly with both sides of any opinions but user safety is ALWAYS the preferred choice and proper testing does mean users have some assurance but again “portable” means it was only compliant where and when any testing took place … sorry it’s another long one see pics below …
In one of our arcades all the equipment except outdoor rides was wired direct into a fused fixed outlet above machine height. So are they termed non portable?
Centre pieces like roulette wheel and pushers and horse racers , supplied from above with sometimes no plug in (unless the machine had a short lead one on top) and labelled at the wall RCD panel to isolate .
Kiddie ride testing requires a more thorough test and if it’s accessible to public then an ADIPS licence is required by the tester, it includes motion and weight stability and adult supervion labelling to be present. And leads should not disappear through a wall . A waterproof outdoor socket must be fitted so the supervising adult has a clue where to turn it off should a child wish to dismount quickly into the timer period .
Pat is not a guarantee of safety or even required for home use equipment
It is to protect public accessible mains operated items and also the staff and customers within a company or business.
Who use or have access to the item.
Testing periodically is mandatory for public safety… but again ‘ portable’ can be interpreted in different ways
Shop tills , canteen kettles ,snack vender machines, pub toilet hand driers , arcade stuff in arcade or alone in a cafe etc ….
The test is applied where the equipment is sited, on the date of testing and if that item can be deemed as not portable it may be exempt but an earth continuity test should still be carried out .. if ! ! ! It requires an earthed supply if not normally used with a two core supply cable , say table lamps in a restaurant?
Among my arcade work repairs seperate to our sales , pooltable reclothing and pub leisure equipment supply .. each was covered by appropriate insurance.. as said too any competent person with adequate understanding of the type of “ portable “ appliance and it’s likely risk issues can do the test using a good PAT testing unit.
Knowing the requirements it’s entirely NDT non destructive testing and inaccessible areas could be missed or not deemed a ‘risk’ area . Much of the full test involves observation as well as earth bonding and insulation checking .. THEN the term portable leaves a test open to thought..
THE TEST : visual check . As stated a common sense opinion .. Supply cable must be (ideally exceptions can apply) under 2 metres and visibly enter an undamaged switchable socket. The plug and cable should be assessed for damage , poor fitting of terminal wiring or incorrect fuse rating where appropriate. Fail . Exposed conductors fail as should badly crushed/pinched wire and cable clamps should grip the outer sleeving not just be loose on inner wires . Factory sealed euro leads are recommended but often video cabs have an internally fitted mains lead, more common in older games especially. Seperate euro cables should be tested individually as they can be swapped around ?
It is often assumed that all metal door frames , panels , locks and refill keys etc are linked by manufacture to the incoming earth… which can also be age dependant as some older equipment may not have the wiring? Though it is expected that operators take adequate steps to ensure player safety with extra earthing on such as palm reader fortune tellers and similar vintage items previously fed by two core supply… Plastic Glendale elephants etc, fail as the coin insert plate is not usually earthed while the flo tube lighting always is? The coin entry plate often held in by a lock and tongue latch can be totally removed for servicing blockages by lolly stick, bent coin etc. so often gets detached from any earth?
Electrically an earth point is located .. often a key in a lock or exposed door hinge etc. The pat unit is supplied with mains and the appliance under test is plugged into the test device.. ( which does not power up the appliance on test) Then any competent user follows the instructions pressing each button as asked and notes the response of the analogue needle .. only readings within the green zone for either continuity or insulation tests are a legal pass ….
As you assume it can be relatively unimportant or meaningless if the device has been moved or altered in any way as with a car MOT … It can and does protect users from risk of harm ?
In some arcades I have tested every machine other things often apply a FAIL if the equipment may be fine ? One is too few supply outlets too far from machines on islands …. 13amp extension cable supplying say 6-8 or more 5 amp fruits or videos via adapters in the adapters … but like all of us at Xmas when the tree lights and extra window lights need to share a plug with the tv, music , computer, vacuum cleaner etc…. 😂
Worse though is many arcades have a 500vac supply split into banks of blue , yellow , red …. Any two of which supply around 240v there is no actual neutral or earth as such … the supply live to 10 wall sited games on yellow will be the live plug pin , then the next bank of say 14 machines could be on blue live or red live and all 3 phases share a return which is a technical earth at the main RCD …. I have noted many cases of two adjacent machines supplied on two different phases actually expose players to a tingle leak off earthed metal parts voltage of around 80volts not lethal but not pleasant if you ran in off the beach in bare feet or a child licks one while having a damp hand on the next one .. And the public are totally unaware as are often arcade staff? Or owners till it’s pointed out or someone says I got a shock like pins and needles??? All machines are wired to standard live / neutral earth but the site sockets have differing live supplies shared by the 500v 3 phase and the sensible thing is to mark which phase supplies which sockets … plugging a solder iron into a blue live socket and working on a plugged in but ‘ off ‘ adjacent game could be dangerous to the engineer,,
As said blank labels are on eBay , just date them and pray no mishaps,,,, or like my stickers printed with my details and tel no. Seen in picture of test unit
The other picture shows my £1,000,000 of public liability cover up to just after I ceased doing repairs commercially after my heart attack and retirement .. while no professional training might be acceptable doing such testing , my most recent refresher training certificate of 2017 is also available and I am a qualified amusement electrician tv radio repair engineer.
A million quid is how serious I took my repairs and any test safety for users. Not meaningless! But in self protection too!
But do agree wholeheartedly with both sides of any opinions but user safety is ALWAYS the preferred choice and proper testing does mean users have some assurance but again “portable” means it was only compliant where and when any testing took place … sorry it’s another long one see pics below …
In one of our arcades all the equipment except outdoor rides was wired direct into a fused fixed outlet above machine height. So are they termed non portable?
Centre pieces like roulette wheel and pushers and horse racers , supplied from above with sometimes no plug in (unless the machine had a short lead one on top) and labelled at the wall RCD panel to isolate .
Kiddie ride testing requires a more thorough test and if it’s accessible to public then an ADIPS licence is required by the tester, it includes motion and weight stability and adult supervion labelling to be present. And leads should not disappear through a wall . A waterproof outdoor socket must be fitted so the supervising adult has a clue where to turn it off should a child wish to dismount quickly into the timer period .
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Very good write up, the Mr B's arcade where I worked did do it properly, not many others around us did. Our machines were powered from rows off rails running front to back attached to the ceiling grid frame. Then wherever the machines were we had 4 gang extension sockets with curly leads going up and attaching to the mains rail by what we nicknamed a 'sky hook'. A 3 pinned connector that twisted into the rail. These were nightmares because after time the earth pin would get pushed back in the connector when people didn't quite get it right when twisting it into the rail. Consequently we had the problem you described where each row was on a different phase. Once one of the earths was no longer was making connection then if you touched a machine on that row and one from the row next to it you could get a nice jolt,ours measured in at 115vac. The rows were close too and I had a habit of putting a hand on a machine in each row as I walked down the aisle and would swing myself through the air and land a few feet forward, showing off my athleticism. This is when I first became aware these electrical issues as I crumpled into a heap on the floor. I guess the sweaty hands magnified the effect as too my full weight pressing down on each hand/machine contact. The shock was minor really but the fall hurt lol. Sorry for waffle but safety checks/preventative maintenance are so important.
miner2049er
User
No, it's not a waste of time, you get a sticker.
kingtreelo
Active member
PAT testing is a waste of time for your house, but isnt it a legal requirement for businesses?
I know my work has it, just take my laptop chargers in once a year and get the guy to test them
I know my work has it, just take my laptop chargers in once a year and get the guy to test them
A business does NOT have to have past testing , BUT if any one gets hurt they are responsible. So yes a business needs it ! Lol.
Most inurances demand you have it done and registered before they will inure you.
Dave.
The IET is trying to phase out the term "Portable Appliance" - the 5th Edition of the IET Code of Practice for In-Service Inspection and Testing of Electrical Equipment no longer uses that term, although we'll probably be stuck with "PAT Testing" forever.
kingtreelo
Active member
funny this, was taking my son somewhere today and he mentioned an ex-fireman he speaks to was telling him he now trains people for PAT testing, had to tell him what it meant
We have to PAT every machine we run up at work as part of the job we recently had a Sonic Dash that wouldn't pass so wasn't allowed to go to site.
Some say unless you've actually done a course on it the PAT is worthless once its left you though as you should really be qualified in it.
Some say unless you've actually done a course on it the PAT is worthless once its left you though as you should really be qualified in it.
kingtreelo
Active member
i think to the ignorant, possibly me, we just think its a tick in the box for some test that doesnt really do anything
but for the more knowledgeable and probably more sensible among us, it serves a much bigger purpose and is extremely important..i guess the only only analogy i can think of is....
you can need a DBS check for working with children, the day after that check is complete, you could commit a crime against children, but that is an issue that is impossible to predict, which is why these tests need repeating on a cycle
but for the more knowledgeable and probably more sensible among us, it serves a much bigger purpose and is extremely important..i guess the only only analogy i can think of is....
you can need a DBS check for working with children, the day after that check is complete, you could commit a crime against children, but that is an issue that is impossible to predict, which is why these tests need repeating on a cycle
With the insane world were living in, I mean PAT test everything at a business as you say even if new yet allow the sales of cheapo chargers for phones, scooters etc charging Li-On Batteries that can easily burn ya house down, so It's just more EU BS to me when you don't care about stuff far more serious
What happened to British Safety Kite Marks and everything else years ago now you have ebay flooded with any old tat, Electrical/Electronics Safety seems to have left the planet in one of Elon's Cock Rockets and now at bottom of Ocean in Bermuda Triangle
You have countries like Malaysia or somewhere that won't allow BMW's on the road that have a recall for fire risk or anything serious, Britain... yeah keep driving it, should be okay but bring it in if you have an issue, bit late when it's burnt out on the motorway hard-shoulder
What happened to British Safety Kite Marks and everything else years ago now you have ebay flooded with any old tat, Electrical/Electronics Safety seems to have left the planet in one of Elon's Cock Rockets and now at bottom of Ocean in Bermuda Triangle
You have countries like Malaysia or somewhere that won't allow BMW's on the road that have a recall for fire risk or anything serious, Britain... yeah keep driving it, should be okay but bring it in if you have an issue, bit late when it's burnt out on the motorway hard-shoulder