Operation Wolf Sound Issues

[paulcan69]

Right, Si (Unit504) dropped his op wolf over Sun night.

I've just finished wiring up a basic loom so I can run it here on my test rig.

I can see what he means, all music is ok and the odd basic sound effect is ok.

But any sound effect which is a sampled sound i.e explosion, or the player gun fire sound is just replaced by beeping, + all voice speech like when you start, or when you die etc...

Notice at the start the shoe lace sound is replaced with a beeeeep, then the knife, beeeep, then the loading of the gun beeeeep.

+ The speech for "OPERATION INITIATED RESCUE HOSTAGES" and Operation Wolf on the title screen.

Now finally this board has schemes online (the first one I've ever picked

, + I have a dead op wolf donor board) so if we find anything not working we have parts we can steal, even the customs.

Trouble is I'm scared...

and have bitten off more than I can chew as I never thought the sound board was so complicated until I looked at the schemes a few days ago

Ok as you may know I have a video probe all hooked up on this setup, a logic probe and the will to learn, and as I say spare parts.

This is a free repair for Si (Unit504) as we now operate a "scratch each others back policy" so I'm not doing this to make money only to help out a friend, so that may make you want to help me more.

I'm doing it for the love of learning and arcade in general.

(Even making a make shift loom was hard work, look at the pinouts for fu*k sake!!)

Please all I'm calling on you, it's a cool game, even you old skool only lovers must have some love for this one, it was a masterpiece in it's day, remember that heavy metal gun the first time?

Made you feel like an army dude on a killing rampage from the safety of a smokey arcade somewhere.

Show me the love, and lets help this classic live again, and not deprive Si (Unit 504) from not playing this for too long.

Please help.....??

Anyway "Roll V.T!!!!!!"

paulcan692011-02-07 21:51:44

 

[paulcan69]

EDITED 10/2/11:- Proper schematics in a post below, read further down..... (ignore the link in this post as it's just a manual with pinouts)

Manual with schematics:-



http://www.crazykong.com/manuals/OperationWolf.man.pdf

If it was my own board I would go mad trying to repair it first, but...I don't want to fudge up his working board.

You can't swap over the ribbon cable as it is soldered onto the sound board, (well I could but hey not yet!) via 10-15 pins, the other end is however a removable connector but that then doesn't help test anything.

We have ruled out Si's cab as I'm now running the board on my known good setup.

The sound is working (other than sample's) so we know 12v is ok.

I have pulled the only eprom on the sound board (a 512) and romcmp'd it to mame, and it came back identical.

The only other socketed chip, so for ease of swap, I swapped that over from the dead donor board and still the same. (It was a PAL for anyone who cared)

I haven't checked for dry/cold joints yet, nor have I wiggled stuff to see if I get a reaction, like I say I don't want to just kill his board and owe him another...!

In my "very simple" experience, it's like an address bus isn't carrying a single into or out of some kind of custom which has access to where ever the samples are played from???

Don't laugh, complete guess, just trying to put into words what I'm thinking but I don't know the correct terminology

paulcan692011-02-10 08:29:04

 

[darthbob1425]

Do you own an Eprom programmer?

There is a 27512 Eprom at IC10 that holds the sound program. It might be worth pulling the chip and seeing what it registers as in Romident. If it comes up unknown or blank then it will need replacing.

This link shows where the info comes from http://maws.mameworld.info

Rob

 

[paulcan69]

Sorry, just edited my above post and added just that as you were typing, so I didn't see your post till just now!

Yes spot on, I have 2 programmers a Galep 4 and a Wellon VP-280, both confirm (with romident and romcmp) exactly the same as it should be!!

D'oh I was really counting on it being that - for mine and Si's sake.

Thanks very much for your reply and interest!! Ta bud!

paulcan692011-02-07 22:14:14

 

[trm]

Only got time for a quicky tonight as I've been working on something else up until now and I'm starving.

I've not even looked at the schematics yet, but based on what you've said and the youtube (good idea to video btw) I would suspect the sample playback mechanism. I'd grab the schematic for the sound section and look at any ICs which are related to the sound. I suspect that you've got some synth chips (OPL style, like in the original soundblaster cards and early synths) that are used for playing music, and then you've got one or more digital-to-analogue (DAC) converters that turn the samples back into audio. The buzz you get when a sample should be played sounds suspiciously like the clock signal that the YM3014 serial DACs use - it's possible that the serial DAC(s) have popped and have shorted something internally so you're getting the clock input to the audio output.

I've also got some crappy internet problem tonight as the schematic is taking ages to download, so I can't even eye up likely chips, but I'd look around the sound section for any YM3014 or YM3012 chips, or anything which is annotated as a DAC. If you can't find anything obvious, then work back the schematic from the op-amps. These will be fed by multiple sound sources - an OPL chip (for the music generation) and some DAC system which converts the samples back to analogue audio. It's the DAC I'd be most interested in. If you can locate it, grab the datasheet and then try a logic probe on the various pins.

You can also use your video probe to check the inputs/outputs here as long as you don't probe on the 12V side of the power-amp, but you should be keeping away from the power-amp as we know that works. When you video probe the DAC you should see a clock signal which will appear as a regular pattern - depending on the speed of the clock it will likely just be a green tint to everything on the screen. When you find the digital data input, you should see pulsing on the screen as the sample data will consist of high/low levels. To get an idea of what this should look like, try video probing one of the lower address lines on the main 68000 CPU.

When you find an analogue output from the DAC I suspect you'll get a repeating pattern as the DAC is outputting some kind of sawtooth or square wave. I'd expect to see the clock signal constantly and the digital data/analogue output only when the samples are triggered; if there is a test mode that lets you do sound test it'll save you time trying to play the game to generate sounds.

Sorry that this is so vague, but as I said I've not had chance to read the schems. I will do so tomorrow and come back with some more concrete pointers.

BTW very pleased to see you're now onto helping other members get their gear fixed. Excellent!

cheers

tim

 

[trm]

PS - You don't want this to be a duff ROM chip that's fixed by a ROMIDENT - there's no fun in that

 

[paulcan69]

PS - You don't want this to be a duff ROM chip that's fixed by a ROMIDENT - there's no fun in that

True.

Here's a pic of the said sounboard layout from mame source:-

 

[paulcan69]

And from reading (as I'm still a dumb a*s at all this) a DAC is a digital to analogue converter.

Any idea's on which of the above come under this bracket?? Is it the Yamaha YM3012?

Sorry if that's wrong!

You know I'm a noob to this, don't expect too much, I'm at work at the mo and not looking at the board so this is all I can check from here, + my work blocks a lot of good arcade info sites.

Ta.

Here's the datasheet on the DAC

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/YM3012-datasheet.html
paulcan692011-02-08 12:59:05

 

[Unit504]

Is it fixed yet im have these odd withdrawal symptoms!! arghhhh!

No really, big thanks for helping with this!!!!
Good news tho, i found the BB poster i meant to bring over for you too!

Unit5042011-02-08 12:51:46

 

[darthbob1425]

PS - You don't want this to be a duff ROM chip that's fixed by a ROMIDENT - there's no fun in that

Yeah but they're repairs I can do

 

[paulcan69]

Just probe'n the dac now with my logic probe, can anyone give me an idea of how the probe should behave for this chip by looking at the datasheet?

i.e the * pin should be low until a soundeffect happens then go high and pulse etc...?

Is that possible, then I can get an idea on what I'm seeing?

Remember I'm still real new to all this.

Thanks
paulcan692011-02-08 21:02:59

 

[trm]

OK. Checking the DAC. Open the PDF you linked to and go to PDF page 5. This shows a sample circuit.

First of all, measure the voltage across pin1 (Vdd - aka 5V) and pin 3 (digital GND). You should get around 5V and this is the feed to the digital part of the IC circuit.

Then put your logic probe onto pin 2 which is the clock (symbol is theta

). This IC is known as a serial DAC (SDAC) which means that if you're feeding e.g. 8 bit samples, then instead of having 8 data lines into the IC you queue the data up and then feed it into the serial input every clock pulse, so the clock pulse theta is critical. I would expect this to work at TTL levels (can't get my scope out to check) so I'd expect to see a very fast high/low light show on your logic probe. If you video probe this you should get a green tint all over the screen.

Now having checked out power and clock, we need to look at the inputs and see if we're getting PCM (pulse code modulation - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-code_modulation) data. Logic probing pin 4 (SD - data) should show you a rapid high/low pulse when the game is trying to play a sample. This line may be quiet for long periods until a sample is played back as the data transferring over this line is the serialised PCM sample data.

Next, we need to look at pins 5 (SAM2) and pins 6 (SAM1). These seem to be used to control whether that output channel is enabled or disabled. A logic high on these lines means that the sample data will be converted into analogue output. So I'd expect these lines to show low on the logic probe for a lot of the time and then hold high for the duration of a sample playback.

The next part is to look at the analogue outputs. There are a number of these - pin12 (Analog Out To Buff) seems to be expected to feed into an op-amp and then the output of the op-amp fed back into the SDAC via pin 11 (Analog In). You'll likely have very low amplitude (amplitude being the low to high range of the signal) on these pins as they're later boosted by the op-amp to something in the millivolt range and then fed through the power-amp to generate the booming gunshots!

Pins 10 (CH-2) and 9 (CH-1) seem to be the actual final analogue audio outputs. These should be wired to op-amps, which will then have some resistors and capacitors (not the electrolytic can type, probably polyester or mylar caps which are generally the rectangular brown/orange shiny type - not to be confused by ceramic decoupling caps which you tend to see at the end of rows of chips). The resistors and caps around the op-amps are bandpass filters. The combination of resistors and capacitors make filters that allow specific frequency ranges to be passed through or to be filtered out - a good way of booming the bass but also cutting off any high pitched squeal caused by dodgy audio design/shielding).

I'm assuming the output chain op-amps work as I suspect they're amplifying the bzzzzt noise you get when a sample should play. We can verify this assumption later on when I've described how to make an audio signal generator - very useful for testing op- and power-amps.

The actual audio output is a bit vague due to the options available on the IC, so I'm just going to post this then go and look for an actual schematic. The Op Wolf PDF I've got is just a wiring and operations guide, so I'm hoping there is an actual PCB schematic available elsewhere.

On the plus side, I've replaced quite a few YM3012s/YM3014s as these seem to be a common failure; not as frequently as duff op-amps, but enough that I pull these whenever I chuck a board and keep a stash. If it turns out we've not got a proper schematic for Op Wolf then I may suggest replacing the YM3012 with a known good one from another board.

Right, hope this helps and gives you some starting points. If you're in any doubt whatsoever, logic probe each of the pins and post back with something along the lines of:

Pin x - normally low but goes high every 30 seconds/every time a sample should be played.

Pin y - regular fast high/low pulse

Pin z - constant high signal

cheers dude,

tim

 

[paulcan69]

Well just an update, I prob'd the YM3012 DAC



Am I correct in saying I want +5v to run the probe as I'm in TTL mode?

Or should I have switched to cmos and used +12v to supply it with power?

I thought that was for cpu's only? Don't laugh too hard!!

When should I use these modes?

Well I did +5v and in TTL mode...

This is with no sound running but board running of course:-

i.e in demo mode but past the intro etc... so no sound at this point...

(As per the datasheet I attached above this was my results

VDD Pulse (yellow) flashes once when I first touch it

CLOCK 1 Low (green) + yellow pulses continuously

DIG gnd vss Low (green)

S D (data) Low (green)

SAM2 Low (green) + yellow pulses continuously

SAM1 Low (green) + yellow pulses continuously

ICL Yellow pulse when first touched then nothing

ANALOG gnd vss Low (green)

Other side:-

Low (green) on Analog gnd (vss)

...and then all the other pins on that side stuck hi (red) on pins Ra, Bc, MP, analog out, analog in, ch-2, ch-1 (according to the datasheet)

With sound running:- i.e in game or during noisy intro,

(on this side of the chip it was exactly the same results

VDD Pulse (yellow) flashes once when I first touch it

CLOCK 1 Low (green) + yellow pulses continuously

DIG gnd vss Low (green)

S D (data) Low (green)

SAM2 Low (green) + yellow pulses continuously

SAM1 Low (green) + yellow pulses continuously

ICL Yellow pulse when first touched then nothing

ANALOG gnd vss Low (green)

BUT and here's the BUT other than the first pin:-

Low (green) on Analog gnd (vss)

Nothing on the other side of the chip other than the low for gnd vss whilst the sounds are running/trying to run. (Or is this normal for a working part...?)

Please tell me if I checked this correctly.

Having no idea what all this meant

I thought red light looks bad

...I'm digging a bigger hole aren't I?

So I removed the DAC from the donor board and tried it in the good board.

No joy I'm afraid exactly the same, even the probe tells the same story.

I didn't think it would be that easy.

Actually we don't know for 100% sure that the donor dac wasn't bad, but I doubt they would both act exactly the same? + the other board is totally dead doesn't fire up at all so maybe a dead cpu on that board?!?

When can we do a tech day/night/weekend for beginners? Well up for that, like a idiots guide or crash course in simple pcb basics and repair.

Anyhoo, ideas to try next anyone?

Something I should probe and what I should expect to see, + what does the Taito custom do? Worth a swap?

Sorry shotgun approach is all I can do at the mo, must learn how to read the flow of a circuit and know what to expect at each pin in each state and why.

Thanks in advance for any ideas?

Love you!

 

[trm]

Hi dude,

Need to scoot so I've not got time for a detailed reply, but a couple of points.

1. Use the probe in TTL mode. All the games you're going to be looking at are working at TTL levels where the power source is 5V and logic low is 0V to around 2V and logic high is around 3V to 5V. CPUs work at the same TTL levels, otherwise you'd need a voltage converter to interface the CPU with the rest of the board logic.

2. Feed the power from the +5 and GND connectors on the JAMMA edge connector. You could cut the croc clips from the ends of the probe flyleads and solder them to the edge connector, but I've added two screw terminals on my test box which provide +5 and GND.

3. You need to be more descriptive when you state red/green/yellow. For example on the Maplin probe, Red and Yellow flashing means you've got a signal which is pulsing from Z state [1] to high. Red, Green & Yellow mean you've got a signal which is pulsing between logic high and logic low. You need to confirm what colour LEDs relate to which signal levels. Having a red (high) led illuminate isn't a bad thing - without any logic high levels you wouldn't have data flowing.

4. Please don't get into the habit of shotgunning boards

You won't learn anything, you'll end up killing chips which are possibly being produced no longer and you'll piss off some techs as they see this as ignoring the skill/learning required to be able to fix boards. But most importantly, you might chop out an IC that's working fine and then find it's the last one of that kind you can find!

It's going to take a while to learn the intricacies you need to start getting an intuitive feel for the boards but you're doing superbly so far, so don't give up hope now. Sometimes it's a trivial fix, other times you can spend weeks working on a board. At the moment I'm helping my Dad troubleshoot a Pacland board that's been on the bench for over a month. We've not stuck at it this long because it's such an awesome game, it's because it's showing some really interesting faults and has ended up being a case where almost every tool in the troubleshooting arsenal has come into play - Fluke 9100, Video Probe, Logic Probe, Logic Analyser, IC tester, MAME in debug mode, ROM disassembly, 6809 manuals and so on - so it's turned into a project that'll be documented explaining where all these tools fit in and how they helped us towards the eventual resolution and probably also where we could have used a different tool.

But it should be a good insight into the range of techniques available, and how a breakthrough with one tool leads to work with another, which then feeds back in. And this is for a pair of people who've got a combined decade of PCB fixing between them and we're still learning new things, so you clearly have to give it time

If you can find a proper schematic for the game that would really help, as the current linked manual seems to just be a wiring guide. I suspect being a relatively modern Taito game that the current PDF is all that'll be around though

cheers

tim

[1] Z-state also known as high-impedance or isolation mode. When a device is attached to a shared bus but doesn't need to use the bus, it can switch its pins that are connected to the bus into what is known as Z state. This basically means they're not affecting the activity of the bus.

 

[paulcan69]

Oooooo just realised you were writing as I was, so my post should be before yours?

Anyway off the re-read yours above as I know it will help explain what I've posted to me...

Ta.

 

[trm]

Figured it might have been a simul-post

Hope there is stuff in there which helps and we'll tackle it further tomorrow.

cheers

tim

 

[paulcan69]

Cool thanks for clearing that all up, that makes loads more sense now.

I didn't cut the chip out I never do that, I desoldered (with a desoldering station) and just swapped.

But your quite right, I could kill them just with the heat alone.

+ I do want to learn the fault finding side, and your right it will take time, ages in fact...already boards are starting to feel less unknown to me, and how they work.

The 5v for the cpu side, the 12v for sound, -5v for some boards for sound, op amps, caps in sound sections, a cpu like a z80 or a 68000 to run the board, eproms and how they can have sound code, cpu instructions, or gfx data, Ram and what it does (like on a pc)

The parts I'm tripping up on now is....DAC's, buffers, multiplexers etc... this is where my data, address, RGB, general computer and tv video display knowledge need to get better, so I can also understand a hi or low and why, someone said (maybe GUDDLER?) that to fault find you need to know what data to expect to flow to the point your probe'n or how do you know if it's good or bad?

I will put the time in and never give up, I want to learn this tooo much, but I'm gonna be slow until I see it happen in front of me and read a lot until it just clicks.

(Then I normally get good at what I'm doing)

Took me a while to learn my current job, but now I kick a*s at it, I've always been the same

You can tell by my vague description how little I know about data rushing around a circuit.

I'll get there, I hate to lose at something when I know I can learn it and do it!!

Thanks for the TTL tip for all arcade, that's gone into my memory now, and it's only by asking I can find a good answer, I find Google doesn't always tell me the basics but can go into overkill instead and make me walk away.

Shotgunning habits are what I'm trying to push away from, when you start it's all you can hope for as you are powerless to do anything else apart from just looking and going maybe.....it's that!!

(Guess, guess)

P.S I love Pacland, not the best game in the world but fun, do us a deal when it's done?

I have run out of time tonight but I shall return tomorrow stronger than today, re-read your above and have a go of what you said.

Ta Tim bud!

 

[paulcan69]

Right got the schematics for op wolf here:-

http://www.freefilehosting.net/operationwolfschematics

I was very tired last night and went to bed early, I will read the above and have a look tonight.

The link didn't connect at my work due to a firewall setting that makes the page refresh when you try to download, I'm sure it will work fine on most computers without 10 ton of security.

Let me know if the link doesn't work.

Many thanks,
paulcan692011-02-10 08:27:06

 

[Ravage]

Guys, I've got a untested op wolf (at least i think it is) sitting here in the garage. If you wanna paypal me the P&P you can have it and see if the sound board works. I know its best to continue fixing but nice to have a spare pcb set

 

[paulcan69]

Yes please Rav, I'm sure Unit504 will have it, please hold it for him/us.

Thanks again you arcade legend you!!

I will still continue to fix it as I'm loving the learning.

Ta Rav, god bless you!

Si if your reading this that's the most generous offer your ever gonna get Paypal the man now!!!!